Saturday, 18 June 2011
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WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?
Just over a month ago (May 11th) our denomination PC(USA) completed a voting process that had taken most of a year and which followed at least 15 years of effort by liberal elements in the denomination. As of that date, specific wording in the rules was stricken. No longer is sexual purity (chastity/marital fidelity) to be a requirement for ordination of ministers. So much has been sacrificed in the attempt to unify the church. Unity, it seems, is far more important than truth - especially Biblical truth. Here is the link to an article about that decision: http://www.worldmag.com/articles/18049
This coming Monday I will be attending a meeting of our presbytery which will be open to those of us who are lay people discussing the question: "Where do we go from here?" Our presbytery is one whose votes were opposite of the outcome. Now just because one doesn't get 'his own way' is not a good reason to make a move, unless the issue is as important as this one is.
The article points out the difficulties involved. For instance, my pastor has been a minister in this denomination for probably 25 or more years. (pardon my not knowing such an important fact). Anyhow, his pension is at stake, if our local church or our presbytery were to leave or try to form a denomination within a denomination. Also, our church owns the property where it is now. What entanglements are involved there?
I would urge those who belong to any denomination to take heed of this trend which is spurred on (ostensibly) to stem the decline in membership and to restore(?) unity in the church. So much is being said about the church needing to be relevant and open-minded in order to remain a force in society for the kingdom of God. How do we remain in the kingdom of God when we deny God's word as true and relevant to us? What difference does it make if we were to begin growing in numbers if our growth spiritually quits and dries up on the vine? ....or is cut off from the Vine?
Whatever happens within the Body of Christ affects all in the body. Pray with me that God's will shall be done - and that the extreme cost to some will be borne by the brethren so that God will be glorified.
Isaiah 28:14-15:
Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
15 Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we are in agreement.
When the overflowing scourge passes through,
It will not come to us,
For we have made lies our refuge,
And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.”You can expect the liberal media to condemn any backlash, but they are of the world and the world hates Christ and Christians.
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Comments (15)
I'm not certain your pastor will lose his pension if your church / Presbytery disaffiliates. As I understand it, the Presbyterian Board of Pensions only administers the pension program, it does not "own" the contributions. I think his pension allotment is guaranteed, even if it is transferred to some other administering agency. Unlike the church property issue, I haven't seen any Layman articles concerning pastors losing their pensions. As far as your church property, we now know that it depends on your particular state and whether they recognize Neutral Principles of Law. My state - Ohio - does, and so we would prevail in any property dispute... and we recently sent our Presbytery a copy of the Session minutes from way back in the 1980's (?) where we voted to reject their move toward holding all denominational properties "in trust." We subsequently reaffirmed that rejection with another vote.
Our Pastor (also 25 years in the PCUSA) tends to lean toward staying in the denomination and working for reform, possibly joining one of several reform groups already meeting, or the newly forming Fellowship PCUSA. I'm somewhere in the middle, personally. I eagerly desire to be affiliated with like-minded, Bible believing churches. On the other hand, is it right to jump ship and leave the wolves to ravage all remaining congregations? What I would love to see is for God to work powerfully, turning the tide and sweeping the denomination with judgment and conviction leading to repentance,,, not just repentance from this particular issue, but from many other sinful attitudes and practices that often exist in our churches as well. There are still planty of like-minded Presbyterians out there, the big question is - how many will continue the exodus and how many will stay and work for reform? Is it too late? I still don't know at this point.
BTW - If this decision was reached in an attemt to "grow our numbers," well, I can't imagine a more miserable failure. Don
@A_Piano_Tuner@xanga - I would assure you that those I know of in our local church have been praying for reform, but the outcome of the vote was a blow to the stomach, knocking the wind out of them. I have seen similar situations, such as during the charismatic renewal and Vatican II, there were many new born Catholic Christians jumping ship, while others were saying as you have, that to abandon the others is to leave them to be devoured. Because the enemy is ever ready to pounce in these situations, some do get hurt and some never understand the issues. I think that our particular local church would remain pretty much as it is...one major drawback is that the capitulation by the national leadership is known nationwide and is not a formula for attracting God-fearing believers. So that would always be a drawback and something that has to be addressed over and over.
I really don't have any figures as to the percentage in the local church or the presbytery who would stay to help reverse the trend. It doesn't look so great - the chances of getting this decision reversed. I will keep you posted on the meeting(s). I hadn't realized that you were in a PCUSA church.
I also didn't note that you lived in OH. I was born in Elyria,attended North Ridgeville school, lived for a time at Put-in-Bay, and a longer time at Lima and Ada (where I still have family. My dad lives in Creston and my brother in Chillicothe....any of those close to you? Oh yes, I am an OSU alum also.
I'm afraid we are getting what we deserve... God bless, ~ Pete
@quest4god - Hey, I'm a little southeast of Elyria in Warren, just above Youngstown, and a YSU alum. We're practically kin!
One idea my pastor suggested was to take out a large ad in the local paper in which we re-state the Fidelity & Chastity clause and affirm that our church continues to adhere to those standards. We might add something else as well, we haven't talked it over in detail yet. One move we did make for the first time is that we only sent Per Capita as it came in, rather than paying the full amount as usual. As of last month only about half our 2011 allotment had come in (I'm the Treasurer) and that's all we've paid. I realize that Per Capita just basically pays the utilities, etc. at Presbytery, but it's one small way to protest, the next being to withold all Per Capita payments entirely. I'll be interested to know what, if any, steps your church decides to take in response to these changes. Do you read the Presbyterian Layman?
@A_Piano_Tuner@xanga - I'll be sure to get back to you after attending the meeting tomorrow night. I'll be riding with the pastor to the mtg. so we'll have a little more time to talk. No, I haven't seen the Pres. Layman at the church, but will ask about it. Your idea about the newspaper ad sounds good. The church is going to be the laughingstock of the community if we don't let people know - it's not only our image, but our mission that will suffer.
You are about 70 miles from my dad's house in Creston.
So, coach Tressel was first at YSU before going to OSU, right? He's a good man who really did nothing wrong. It will be hard to match his character and coaching ability.
Yes we are kin in the Lord - and now even more so. Of course I now live in Waxhaw NC, but am still a buckeye!
@quest4god - I get the Presbyterian Layman every month... it's a conservative, Evangelical publication, kind of like the "Fox News" of the PCUSA. They have run many articles on all these controversies for years, explaining exactly what's going on and who is involved and what your church can do. The past few issues have discussed various responses to the recent vote. Check it our at www.layman.org They also cover positive things within the church, but everything I know about church property issues, gay ordination, activist groups within the PCUSA, how our money is spent, etc. I learned from the Layman. It's an excellent resource.
Have been and will be praying for your Presbytery (as well as the PCUSA). Isaiah 63:15-64:12.
Apologies... a little brain drain on that last comment – I'd meant to add that I've been praying for you & your congregation also (which I know you already know).
@naphtali_deer@xanga - Thank you.. I mean that sincerely. I am very sad about this whole thing. To think that the leaders of my denomination care so little about us that they would throw this bomb, knowing the division it will cause and that it does not give a certain message to the world. If anything, it tells the world, 'you have been right all along and we're trying to fix ourselves so you will accept us.' I hate that congregations will be split.
Each of us must examine ourselves as to whether we are really seeking the Lord's leading or reacting to the actions of others. This is going to be a long road, but things will happen quickly and we must know how God is using this for His glory.
@quest4god - The main thing is that they've forsaken the Lord and the Word of the Lord. Once that happens, perspective is lost and everything goes wrong. :(
This is where looking at God's hand throughout history is an encouragement to us. If we look at these things through human eyes, we'll be tempted to despair and lose hope. These types of separations have always happened, but it does seem things are coming to a head in many places in a way that's not happened in a very long time.
Jeremiah 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
I think any unity outside of the unity of the entire Body of Christ is not unity, but division. A "unity" to form any denomination produces division.
The only way to achieve the EXPERIENCE of that oneness that ALREADY exists between the members of Christ's unique Body is to step outside of those affiliations that exist which DIVIDE Christians.
Those who have done this have no other relationship with each other than as members of Christ's Body.
Those who STAND upon this fact are those who are qualified to declare themselves meeting simply as the church, that portion of Christ's Body, where they live.
Now whether any actually CHOOSE to do this is another matter...
Which leaves us with our very abnormal (in comparison to what was practiced in the New Testament) situation.
@brerjohn_lives@xanga - I'm not sure if you are speaking out against certain congregations or presbyteries breaking off from the main body of the denomination.. or are you speaking out against any denominational body? We in the PCUSA who believe in the authority of God's word as governing the actions and behavior of Christians are dealing currently with the main body's decision to throw out any mandates of sexual purity as requisite to leadership (and to the rest of the body.) A great many of the members have invested their lives in proclaiming the gospel of Christ through the vehicle of this church and feel betrayed by their national leadership's bowing to the political pressure to acquiesce to public opinion (liberal, opinion).
That is understandable. I am not part of the PCUSA, so I can only see this from the outside. My concern is for the unity of Christians as a body. I do not think you can refer to a denomination as a "body" in the sense of the unique Body of Christ.
@brerjohn_lives@xanga - PCUSA is an entity that we call a body in that it is comprised of individuals (united?) for a common cause - in this case it was formed for the propagation of the gospel. You are correct is saying the Body of Christ is more than the sum total of all denominations and less that all of their members. Only the born again believers really belong to Christ's Body. For them, He gave himself as their ransom, freeing them from the penalty of sin and securing them for Himself forever.
Every denomination's mission statement probably includes preaching the gospel. For this, like Paul, we should rejoice, whether Christ is preached purely or not! But since every denomination claims they exist for the gospel, why then do they not simply join forces and drop the dividing names? It is because in ADDITION to preaching the gospel there is something else. It is that "something else" that frustrates oneness. If, however, people claim they must do what they do as a matter of conscience, let them do what they must. We all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ. All that is done outside of faith is sin to him who does it.
Who is sufficient for these things, anyway.The situation will continue as it is until the Lord returns.